Track experience
Track experience
Hi there,
So I took my 350Z to Pukekohe track last weekend for the first time. It was awesome. However, I noticed few things and would love to have some advises from experience people on the forum:
1. I feel like the brakes is not good enough for some reason. Or maybe it is because I brake too late? Normally when and what distance do you guys brake before a corner? Let's say it is a L corner. Also when I cornered, I feel the car swing around. What is the normal speed that you guys attack the corner?
2. I feel understeer for some reason. Is it common issue on the 350Z or is it because of my settings?
3. I feel less grip. I mean I actually expect more from my tires. Or is it because of the way I drive?
Below are my current settings:
- Toyo PRX T1R 235/40R18 265/35R18
- Nismo suspension
- DBA T3 front, DBA T2 rear. Ferodo pads front, yellow stuff pad rear.
It seems like there are lots of things that are different from my expectation.
So I took my 350Z to Pukekohe track last weekend for the first time. It was awesome. However, I noticed few things and would love to have some advises from experience people on the forum:
1. I feel like the brakes is not good enough for some reason. Or maybe it is because I brake too late? Normally when and what distance do you guys brake before a corner? Let's say it is a L corner. Also when I cornered, I feel the car swing around. What is the normal speed that you guys attack the corner?
2. I feel understeer for some reason. Is it common issue on the 350Z or is it because of my settings?
3. I feel less grip. I mean I actually expect more from my tires. Or is it because of the way I drive?
Below are my current settings:
- Toyo PRX T1R 235/40R18 265/35R18
- Nismo suspension
- DBA T3 front, DBA T2 rear. Ferodo pads front, yellow stuff pad rear.
It seems like there are lots of things that are different from my expectation.
You are driving a street car on a race track these experiences are normal. Driving a race car on the street and you get suspension that is to hard and tracks all over the place, brakes that dont work cause too cold and tires that wear out too quick. A street car is not a race car and a race car is not a street car. No matter what you do anything that does both is a compromise (supercars excluded). Trust me I know spent years trying to have a car that was both, ended up just buying a race car.
As mikes said you have a road car so it will handle alot differently to a race car. Tyre pressure and alignment are big contributors and. Go and buy a note pad and a temp gun - once you set your cold pressures start to track your tyre temp after each session - your looking for even temp across the Tyre.
Not sure of your driving experience but there are some fantastic books out there, also on a track day it can help buy picking a slower race car and following them to look at their lines - ignore speed concentrate on lines and your speed will come.
Understeer will be a combination of things in your car, entry speed, tyre performance and lines most likely
Slow in, fast out
Smooth = speed
Not sure of your driving experience but there are some fantastic books out there, also on a track day it can help buy picking a slower race car and following them to look at their lines - ignore speed concentrate on lines and your speed will come.
Understeer will be a combination of things in your car, entry speed, tyre performance and lines most likely
Slow in, fast out
Smooth = speed
Yeah I totally understand. Would you guys say that if I add front and rear sway bars and do front and rear camber arms so that it is a little bit negative, will it help the gripping? I am about to do it but wanna ask if any of you guys have experience with it.
After all, I still want to keep it as a street car but having fun on tracks sometimes.
Thanks.
After all, I still want to keep it as a street car but having fun on tracks sometimes.
Thanks.
tyres would make the biggest change, if you can get a 2nd set of wheels with good semi slicks on for track use that would make a much bigger difference than anything else
but then your brakes will be worse, get some good high temp race pads and fluid is a good start
but then your brakes will be worse, get some good high temp race pads and fluid is a good start
And what brake fluid are you running? Not forgetting the 350, is a fairly portly 1500kgs, or just under or over depending on model. Brake fluid along with other things mentioned will play a part.
Really good to hear another Zed owner getting out on the track, awesome!
Really good to hear another Zed owner getting out on the track, awesome!
Next - Z Club events:
= Check out events page here or our Z Club NZ Facebook page.
= Check out events page here or our Z Club NZ Facebook page.
Without buying a racecar DRFTIN is right with his comment re tyres. Those Toyos have a treadwear of 280 hardly sticky, get a semislick for track day. I am hearing good things about the new Toyo R888R, but any tyre with 100 or below treadwear should improve things.
Understeer, poor braking etc usually all ties in with poor tyre grip, though well aligning and suspension problems can also cause this.
I assume that your ABS is cutting in so you are hitting the limit of adhesion, your brakes should work for a few laps at least until they overheat or the fluid boils.
Understeer, poor braking etc usually all ties in with poor tyre grip, though well aligning and suspension problems can also cause this.
I assume that your ABS is cutting in so you are hitting the limit of adhesion, your brakes should work for a few laps at least until they overheat or the fluid boils.
Mmmmm. Ok, a lot of good comments here. But and its a big but, i will always say that the biggest improvements will come from the driver regardless of what car you are driving.
Firstly ensure that your car is in the best possible condition for what it is. I would suggest a good wheel alignment by someone that actually knows what they are doing and that you intend to use the car for track days. As mike has mentioned this will inevitably compromise its on road handling. Try to find a compromise.
Your brakes are crap for circuit work and from what i have experienced are crap for hard road use, even the fabled Brembo equipped cars are just crap. This is a given and can only really be fixed by spending a shed load of money.
But as Imogen has said and as i mentioned earlier make sure what you have is in optimal condition. Ensure you have good suitable pads, rotors in good condition and that whole lot has been suitably bled. I would recommend Motul RBF600 brake fluid. It is reasonably priced and as good as anything else out there.
Then as Mike mentioned you should or may get 2 laps if your lucky.
Tires obviously are a major contributor to the performance of your car and if you were to get a set of stickier tires your lap times will undoubtedly be better. But does this mean you are faster ???
Personally for a number of reasons i would consume the tires you have. Learn to drive the optimised package you have to its limits on good high performance road tires. The reasons behind this are many, including the following. Good sticky tires will make your already crap brakes feel worse, to get the best out of them they will require a set up all of their own further compromising your on road handling . Finally based on your email and the questions asked i assume you are an inexperienced driver ? In my experience sticky tires are less foregiving at the transition between grip and no grip ( assuming they are warm) than road tires . This combined with inexperieced driver at track days normally just results in a higher speed accident.
Now assuming you have a car in optimal condition for what it is, read books on racing lines, as mentioned here earlier follow other more experienced peoples lines, ask questions at the track from people who actually know what they are doing and practice take notes change what you doing, and practice some more. Keep doing this until
you are consistent to within about 2/10s of a second per lap . By this stage ( about 6 laps) your car will be a steaming, smoking piece of junk under you ! Take it home fix it and then go out and do it all over again.
Im not trying to discourage you here, as having a good track day car and experience is an awesome thing, but believe me there is huge satisfaction in being able to jump in some fairly average cars and being able to extract good results from them whilst hosing down fairly flash opposition !!
Finally with regard to where we brake ?? Ummm ?? Me ?? From where ever the latest point is where i can still get the car to the correct/optimal corner apex vaguely under control without pooping my pants.
Perhaps this topic is something we as a club could have a casual evening class on sometime.
Firstly ensure that your car is in the best possible condition for what it is. I would suggest a good wheel alignment by someone that actually knows what they are doing and that you intend to use the car for track days. As mike has mentioned this will inevitably compromise its on road handling. Try to find a compromise.
Your brakes are crap for circuit work and from what i have experienced are crap for hard road use, even the fabled Brembo equipped cars are just crap. This is a given and can only really be fixed by spending a shed load of money.
But as Imogen has said and as i mentioned earlier make sure what you have is in optimal condition. Ensure you have good suitable pads, rotors in good condition and that whole lot has been suitably bled. I would recommend Motul RBF600 brake fluid. It is reasonably priced and as good as anything else out there.
Then as Mike mentioned you should or may get 2 laps if your lucky.
Tires obviously are a major contributor to the performance of your car and if you were to get a set of stickier tires your lap times will undoubtedly be better. But does this mean you are faster ???
Personally for a number of reasons i would consume the tires you have. Learn to drive the optimised package you have to its limits on good high performance road tires. The reasons behind this are many, including the following. Good sticky tires will make your already crap brakes feel worse, to get the best out of them they will require a set up all of their own further compromising your on road handling . Finally based on your email and the questions asked i assume you are an inexperienced driver ? In my experience sticky tires are less foregiving at the transition between grip and no grip ( assuming they are warm) than road tires . This combined with inexperieced driver at track days normally just results in a higher speed accident.
Now assuming you have a car in optimal condition for what it is, read books on racing lines, as mentioned here earlier follow other more experienced peoples lines, ask questions at the track from people who actually know what they are doing and practice take notes change what you doing, and practice some more. Keep doing this until
you are consistent to within about 2/10s of a second per lap . By this stage ( about 6 laps) your car will be a steaming, smoking piece of junk under you ! Take it home fix it and then go out and do it all over again.
Im not trying to discourage you here, as having a good track day car and experience is an awesome thing, but believe me there is huge satisfaction in being able to jump in some fairly average cars and being able to extract good results from them whilst hosing down fairly flash opposition !!
Finally with regard to where we brake ?? Ummm ?? Me ?? From where ever the latest point is where i can still get the car to the correct/optimal corner apex vaguely under control without pooping my pants.
Perhaps this topic is something we as a club could have a casual evening class on sometime.
Concentrate 100% Ultra Super Late Breaking Technique!!!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mea0-OKNhA
Sorry couldn't resist
Sure you've also probably heard slow in fast out. Well every corner has a different technique and this graph kinda offers the optimum attack in a less entertaining way than Initial D.
So, (unless you’re a confident race driver), the best strategy to adopt is to best to brake hard, and if you find some wheels are locking (or ABS compensating to much), slightly releasing the brakes and then reapplying with a bit less pressure. As you learn how your car behaves in these conditions you’ll get better at judging the pressure needed for maximum deceleration. (practice first braking in a straight line rather than trail braking)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mea0-OKNhA
Sorry couldn't resist
Sure you've also probably heard slow in fast out. Well every corner has a different technique and this graph kinda offers the optimum attack in a less entertaining way than Initial D.
So, (unless you’re a confident race driver), the best strategy to adopt is to best to brake hard, and if you find some wheels are locking (or ABS compensating to much), slightly releasing the brakes and then reapplying with a bit less pressure. As you learn how your car behaves in these conditions you’ll get better at judging the pressure needed for maximum deceleration. (practice first braking in a straight line rather than trail braking)
Hi guys,
I appreciate all the opinions. Seems like there are still lots of things to learn. I am going to another track day by the end of this month and will try to apply what I have learned so far on the track so see how things go.
Regarding to the brake, I did some research and saw that from 100 to 0 it takes about 50m depends on brakes setup. I was at around 190 on the straight line before going into a corner. So I assume that I should stop at around 170m before the corner. Correct me if I am wrong
Also my brakes setup are:
Front brake pads: Ferodo DS2400
Rear brake pads: EBC Yellowstuff
Front rotors: DBA 4000 T3 Clubspec
Rear rotors: DBA T2 4x4 Survival
Brake fluid: AP Racing x2
Any other better rekon?
Cheers,
I appreciate all the opinions. Seems like there are still lots of things to learn. I am going to another track day by the end of this month and will try to apply what I have learned so far on the track so see how things go.
Regarding to the brake, I did some research and saw that from 100 to 0 it takes about 50m depends on brakes setup. I was at around 190 on the straight line before going into a corner. So I assume that I should stop at around 170m before the corner. Correct me if I am wrong
Also my brakes setup are:
Front brake pads: Ferodo DS2400
Rear brake pads: EBC Yellowstuff
Front rotors: DBA 4000 T3 Clubspec
Rear rotors: DBA T2 4x4 Survival
Brake fluid: AP Racing x2
Any other better rekon?
Cheers,
Hi LD
Your brake setup will be more than fine for the odd track day.
I think you are putting way too much thought into it. Every car/set up will have different braking so i wouldnt focus on how many meters.
So how to know when to brake?
Pick a random spot to brake from to eailsy make it round the corner.
Brake as hard as you can while keeping the car in a straight line.
Enter corner.
If you are going to slow around the corner bake a tiny bit latter the next lap.
Repeat the process each lap untill you are braking hard and going straight into hard corning.
Try it out.
Your brake setup will be more than fine for the odd track day.
I think you are putting way too much thought into it. Every car/set up will have different braking so i wouldnt focus on how many meters.
So how to know when to brake?
Pick a random spot to brake from to eailsy make it round the corner.
Brake as hard as you can while keeping the car in a straight line.
Enter corner.
If you are going to slow around the corner bake a tiny bit latter the next lap.
Repeat the process each lap untill you are braking hard and going straight into hard corning.
Try it out.
Hi Do as Camross mentioned above. Dont overthink think this. Maths can not be applied to this as there are way to many variables and they change every lap. I personally would not be going out and expecting to stop from 170 meters. Hey trying starting at 250 and nibble away at it. In my experience braking dsistance seems to increase by the square of the increase of speed .
Okay I see.
There is one more thing I want to ask before my next track day:
When you guys drive in a track, do you look at the back mirror to see whether there is a car close behind you? Cause before taking a corner, I always have to look back to see if there is a car close behind me or not to avoid crashing. By doing it, I cannot 100% concentrate on the corner.
Need some advise here please
Thanks.
There is one more thing I want to ask before my next track day:
When you guys drive in a track, do you look at the back mirror to see whether there is a car close behind you? Cause before taking a corner, I always have to look back to see if there is a car close behind me or not to avoid crashing. By doing it, I cannot 100% concentrate on the corner.
Need some advise here please
Thanks.